213. Dr Julia Shaw - Bi party online
Sofie talks to Julia Shaw and her cat about criminal psychology, Bad People, memory, reasonable doubt, certainty, nuance, bisexuality, evil, consciousness, science communication, and flirting.
Content warning – coronavirus, anxiety, crime, violence, prison, police, masks, harassment, war, murder, death, diets, drug use, paedophilia, sexism, biphobia, ADD, dementia, terrorism
Julia Shaw
I also don't think that there's good and bad in terms of people. I think that all people are a mixture of good things that they do and bad things that they do. And even the things we do and think are a bit grey and nuanced. It's way more interesting as well to see things as a bit complicated than to just pretend that there's these really stark and easy to define differences between good and bad or innocent or guilty even for that matter. It's often a little bit less straightforward than we think it is. And I think that's exactly why I like psychology.
[music]
Sofie Hagen
If you have paid attention in the last couple of months, you will know that I have been working on a very new podcast with Dr. Julia Shaw, a criminal psychologist. And it's a podcast that is produced by and broadcast by/published by, what's it called, presented by? I don't know, BBC sounds. As you know, I'm used to doing this podcasting thing myself, so I don't have to listen to anyone else but myself, which I prefer. And suddenly, I have to do what the BBC tells me to. And fortunately, they've been very good. So I'm not complaining. I'm just saying it's a strange thing for me. Anyways, we have recorded 10 episodes, we're at the moment, hoping that we're going to get more, it seems quite likely. So I decided to invite Dr. Julia Shaw onto this podcast to chat with her a bit. Because when we do record the podcast, which by the way is called Bad People, and it's a true crime podcast about evil and people that are considered evil by society. And we're talking about, that it's about evil people in society, and we argue quite a lot because we disagree about quite a lot. But I've not really gotten to talk to Julia in a more sort of, yeah, about her. So I'm very happy that we had this conversation. It went really well. And I was I don't know why I was surprised because we've spoken... I mean, each episode we recorded took like four or five hours to record, plus all the prep and stuff so I've spoken to her for like 60 hours I assume, so I don't know I was surprised that it was quite effortless to have this conversation with her. But nevertheless, I'm really proud of it. I'm really happy. I think you're gonna really like her. And she says some some great stuff. And her extra bit which is for patrons only is also brilliant. So if you are not a patron yet do go and sign up for that. I am [sighs] I'm sighing deeply, that's my current mindset. I am still moving house, it's 11pm at the time of me recording this, I am surrounded by cardboard. There's so much cardboard, moving boxes and stuff like furniture, boxes and garbage. I have no floor space anywhere, I have no furniture. Everything's chaos. So I will particularly, more than I ever have before plug that I'm doing these online shows. And sometimes I sell them afterwards. So if you go to SofieHagen.com/shop, you can go and buy the three online shows I've done so far. One called But What About Health? One called How to Be Happy Fat, and one that's called Fat, Gender, Sex, Dating. And they're all about sort of fatness and health, fatness and gender, dating, and sex, and fatness and how to love your fatness. They are between I think 40 minutes and an hour and a half. And it's just £5. And then you can see... It's like a comedy talk. So like a funny, very long TED Talk. Please go and do that that would mean the world to me. On the same page you can also buy my my comedy shows Shimmer Shatter and Dead Baby Frog, which is about... One's about anxiety and one is about emotional abuse. I'm very funny. Ah, yes, please go and buy that sign up for my newsletter, all those sort of things. So I am just going to let you listen to this episode. Please enjoy this conversation with the incredible Dr. Julia Shaw. Thank you for doing this. So for people who might not know who you are, which I feel like everyone should, because if they don't know who you are, then they haven't listened to our podcast. Which is disappointing and should be a crime. But just in case, do you want to introduce yourself?
Julia Shaw
Sure. I'm Dr. Julia Shaw, and I'm a criminal psychologist, I'm the co host with you of Bad People, a BBC sounds podcast, which we're having a great time making. And I specifically do research on false memories, so memories of things that never happened. And I work with the police. And I work as an expert witness, and I work as a scientist and researcher.
Sofie Hagen
I mean, it's, it's so exciting. It's such an exciting job. I mean, you know, from the outside world, at least. Is it as exciting to be in it? Are you everyday like, 'oh my god, horrible things'?
Julia Shaw
Not quite, I mean, I'm not a profiler. I'm not that kind of crime person. I don't work with offenders directly. But I mean, it is fascinating. It's really interesting to look at cases and think, you know, why did people do the things they did? And how do we prevent these things from happening? Is there such a thing as evil? How does memory work? How does it fail us? And in cases that I work with, as an expert, it's often the question of, people claim this thing happened, did it even happen? Is this memory even reliable, and it can have some really catastrophic, but also really interesting, outcomes and consequences.
Sofie Hagen
So do you... How responsible directly... Have you ever been directly responsible for someone's like, if they're going to be free? Or if they're going to go to prison? Or like, how much responsibility do you actually have for these people?
Julia Shaw
I have some responsibility. I mean, I'm not a trier of fact. So like, I'm not a judge or jury. I'm not the one who's making the ultimate decision. In fact, my reports as an expert are specifically not allowed to touch too closely to the ultimate question, which is, you know, is this person guilty or innocent? But as certainly an expert report, saying that something matches how we might think, or how we knew a false memory unfolds, that certainly calls that piece of evidence into question, which makes it more likely that someone is going to not be convicted of a crime. I rarely get brought in for the prosecution, because it's usually [that] I'm the person who introduces reasonable doubt. And so I'm not really... Reasonable doubt is just when... So in a criminal trial, especially, the question is, 'is this person guilty beyond a reasonable doubt'? Do you think that they did it beyond a reasonable doubt? And that's actually a really high bar. That's, like, you're really quite sure that this person did this thing, not like you're kind of 'maybe'. Whereas civil claims, it's on the balance of probabilities, which basically means you're 51% sure, which is a way lower bar. And so there, I've worked with civil cases as well. And there, it's just it's less, my evidence is going to tip it a bit less probably. But when it's beyond a reasonable doubt, anything that introduces doubt, is likely to have a major impact on the case itself. And so I'm the person who potentially brings in doubt.
Sofie Hagen
You're more likely to get them a lesser sentence than you are to get them the death sentence.
Julia Shaw
No sentence, yeah, or knows that they are spoken free. But again, that would also be a good thing. Because if I'm saying that this is possibly a false memory of probably a false memory, although I would never say it like that in the courtroom, I'd say 'this matches how we know a false memory develops'.
Sofie Hagen
You're very good at that talk that's sort of vague about everything. There's no such thing as 100%. And like the fury in your eyes when I once said 120%. And you were just like 'that's not a thing' through the screen, kills me.
Julia Shaw
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, also, because if I said that in an expert report, it wouldn't be usable. And so I wouldn't be able to do my job. If I said this 'definitely is this' because you can't say that in a court of law.
Sofie Hagen
What's your relationship with...
Julia Shaw
The truth?
Sofie Hagen
No, more like certainty, or science, or facts, or this, the idea that there are answers and that? Yeah, I guess, certainty, is the real word. What's your relationship with certainty?
Julia Shaw
I don't like it.
Sofie Hagen
Don't like certainty.
Julia Shaw
But I do feel... So I like evidence based decisions. I like it when there's evidence. So if you make a claim, and there's evidence to back it up, I like that, that makes me generally happy. If you make a claim, there's evidence that goes against it, I'm very unhappy, because I'm going to follow the evidence. And then there's lots of things where there's just like a bit of evidence, but maybe some very good evidence, or there's not enough of it, and that's where there's a lot of 'it's possible', 'it's probable', and I would often not say ''this is the way it is' because they'd be like 'well, but we don't have enough information to actually make that kind of claim'. But if I were to bet, so this is where actually the balance of probabilities like in civil courts comes in, like, if I were to say, 'is it more likely to be a or b', I don't need as much evidence, basically, because all I need is like more than 50%. And so that's why I often end up in that. And is that just in terms of your work, or does that stretch out into your whole life? It can stretch out into my whole life. I mean, I also don't think that there's good and bad in terms of people, I think that all people are a mixture of good things that they do and bad things that they do. And even that is hard to say, because a lot of the things we do and think are a bit grey, and nuanced. And that's really interesting. So I think it's way more interesting as well to see things as a bit complicated than to just pretend that there's these really Stark and easy to define differences between good and bad, or innocent or guilty for that matter. It's often a little bit less straightforward than we think it is. And I think that's exactly why I like psychology.
Sofie Hagen
But why do we have such an intense need to categorise things as either good or bad? Black/White? Like why is that such a common thing to believe in?
Julia Shaw
I mean, for one, it's easy. 'Our brains are cognitive misers' is usually the statement that psychologists like to use. Basically we're a bit lazy, and like to conserve resources, and so it's much easier to see things as good or bad, or black and white and other ways, then to look for nuance and try to relate to things and empathise with people, for example, because it takes a lot more effort, a huge amount of effort, and brings up complicated things. Like COVID, behaviour around COVID, people wearing masks or not wearing masks I mean, it's so easy to say 'all people who don't wear masks on public transit are obviously evil'. I mean, I think this every time I'm on transit, I'm like 'what are you doing? Why aren't you wearing a mask?' It's literally all over the signs that never mind is a decent human being. But it's on that you look, you have to it's the law and yet loads people don't. It's much harder to say, 'okay, what kind of circumstance or what thought process would I have to go through to not wear a mask on public transit'? That's much harder than just saying they're bad, and I'm good, because I'm sitting here with my fantastic mask.
Sofie Hagen
There's often not a nice answer. Like the one time I went outside, in the past, almost a year now, I went to the doctor, and no one was wearing a mask anywhere else in the street. And like no one was wearing masks, and everyone was walking around in groups. And I felt very aware, like meta aware of how I was feeling. And I sort of saw myself from the outside feeling, not embarrassed, but like, almost like pressured into not wearing a mask. Like I wanted just to take it off just so that I wasn't standing out. Like, people would look at me like, 'oh, that person is wearing a mask'. And I was like, wow, I'm usually never... I've never really succumbed to group pressure, peer pressure. But even in that, as a 31 year old, I was like, 'oh, this is a bit much'. And then I thought oh, and I'm quite good at standing out. Like, that's my whole thing is on a stage 'look at me, I'm the only person in the world, give me all your attention'. And if I feel peer pressured into not wearing a mask, I sort of understand why people don't. It's such a group mentality. And then I was like, but surely people should force themselves to do and then I was like, Well, how many people can do that? Right. And it was sort of uncomfortable to understand it because I didn't want to understand that I just wanted to hate people not wearing masks, because they're putting people in danger. And it's uncomfortable to be like, oh, but now I can't hate this. And it goes against my principles, but...
Julia Shaw
Right, and we do it not just with math, I mean, we do it in so many different ways. And we try to divide the world into us and them and I mean, basically nobody thinks that they are one of the rich people, for example, like the rich people are all somebody else, no matter how many resources you have. It's 'they', the rich, are over there somewhere and they're bad. Or 'they' the people who control the water, 'they' you know, it's sort of, there's this artificial division. I mean, of course there are rich people in the world and there are less rich people and poor people in the world. But ultimately, those lines will also change when we do which I think is really interesting. And so I mean, my stepdad who was very wealthy, was convinced that there was 'them', those people in power and the amount of people I used to talk to in Silicon Valley where I'm like, 'you are the power', but they don't see it that way. This also ties in sometimes into conversations around like harassment in the workplace is that you'll get these people who go very quickly into positions of power. And people don't realise that that's what's happened is that, yes, your interactions with your colleagues are different now because you now have power. And they don't. And you might not sort of... You weren't a bro in school, you weren't cool, maybe? But you now have power. And that comes with responsibility. So I think that's a conversation we need to keep having with ourselves and with each other to break down that sort of you, they're so bad. And also, cuz again, even with COVID, I feel like everyone thinks that their level of how they're dealing with it is the right level. And anyone who's doing more is bonkers. Anyone is doing less is bad. And, I mean, we see that with lots of things like religion as well, like my Jewish partner keeps saying it's the same with Judaism. Like anyone who keeps more Jewish customs is mad. Anyone who keeps fewer is a bit of a heathen. And it's just that you think that your ethics and your decisions are the right ones. But yeah.
Sofie Hagen
So that means that as soon as you're aware of this, you have to face some pretty potentially harsh facts about yourself, which is [that] you might not be right. You might not be only good, you might not be the best, you might be the power, you might be the bad person. What's your relationship with that? Like most people would shut their eyes and lalalala, this is not, no, I like the other thing. But you must be, if that's your work, you must sit with that feeling a lot of making these internal like, 'oh wait, could I be the problem? Could I be doing something bad'? Could I be? Why can you... Not just handle that, but why are you attracted to that as a as a thing?
Julia Shaw
I'm attracted to that for myself. But I'm also really attracted to getting other people to be curious about themselves and about their thoughts and about where they come from, and where their beliefs come from. So I think this is why I've become a science communicator is because I like it. So I wrote a book on evil, I wrote a book a memory, as you know, and I do teeny stuff. And so within all of that there's this desire to communicate this wonder, frankly, in understanding and thinking about these things, and it's not even that you're going to have the answers. And this is, I think that people just need to, I think, realise that there's lots of things that you will never have the answer, as we said before, so that hundred percent, you're probably not going to have that for basically anything in life. And to be happy with that level, a bit of uncertainty, but to still think through, why do I think these things or what is my morality? You know, if I was in a really difficult situation, this is why I like ethical dilemmas, for example, if you were in a situation, let's say the UK goes to war, suddenly there's a war situation, you are desperate, maybe you are fleeing your house, presumably one of the thing that lots of people think is a good trait, but can make for horrible outcomes is to say, oh, I would do anything to protect my family. Now on the surface, that sounds great. But how much of anything would you do? Right? And in terms of Okay, so let's say to protect your loved one, you have to kill someone? Would you do that? What about 100?
Sofie Hagen
Sorry, was that a hypothetical?
Julia Shaw
You just said yeah! And so then and suddenly you're weighing these things. And really what that is, is ultimately that a selfish decision of I don't want to give up this one person because I love this person, I lose something if they die, and I'm willing to sacrifice other people's loved ones for my own good. And so there's lots of these really interesting situations that I think we just need to think through and be more prepared for in case shit hits the fan. And we ever do get faced with those things. Because sometimes, you know,
Sofie Hagen
Is there nothing positive in the simplicity for people? It feels good to say I'll do anything to protect my family and then have your other basic friends go. Oh, well done, Steven. You know?
Julia Shaw
Steven you're so basic. I don't know who hypothetical Steven is but I like it. Yeah, it does. It feels good. But I think that there is a piece of people where they kind of know that they're simplifying and it's not the same thing. I think there is and I think there's a curiosity that science feeds. I've watched people in audiences or in front of me like you can see their mind go, 'oh my goodness, I've never thought of that'. Right, 'I've never considered this potential for me. I've never thought that I would be capable of this.' And you can see the sort of wheels turning and that sort of amazement fear mix. But I think that people, people like that, or at least that's my thing. I think we don't encourage it often enough,
Sofie Hagen
Do you think? They just seem so happy not knowing things.
Julia Shaw
I don't know that that's true.
Sofie Hagen
You don't think they do? You don't think it would be... don't you sometimes think that it would be so much more simple and maybe happy is the wrong word, but maybe easy to not be constantly aware of all the nuances and all of the potential... Don't you think it would be? Do you never think 'it would be so easy to just believe that'? This one thing... Like when I used to diet non stop for like 10 years, it was horrible in so many ways, but there was such a, albeit fake, there was such a comfortable feeling in knowing 'well on Monday, I'm going to start eating just fruit. And then what will happen is I will be thin and everything will be good'. Like it was such a simple, relaxing thought. And then you know, you realise that's not how things work. But if your whole life is just there are good people and there are bad people, and I would kill for my family, let's not question that anymore. I don't need to wear a mask. I'm not gonna die. Let's not question that, lalala, there you think people just a quite happy with that?
Julia Shaw
I mean, no, also, because I think that people might assume that they are but then grandma dies because of COVID. Then they're poor because they spent all their money on things that don't make any sense. And they aren't skinny because they've bought into diet myths and they're beating themselves up going 'what's wrong with me', instead of 'the system is broken'. And I think that the system is broken in lots of different ways. And the sort of 'us versus them' mentality gets picked up and popularised by political leaders at times, it gets picked up and popularised by certain news outlets. And what they're doing is just capitalising on your propensity for fear. And that is hugely divisive, hugely, it's going to make you angry, which is, as far as I'm concerned, not happy emotions. And it's going to make the world a worse place. So people are going to be dicks to each other, or worse. And so I think that's where that simplicity just falls apart. It's just, I mean, it's a bit like, if you're on drugs the whole time, sure you can be on happy drugs the whole time, the world's still happening around you, and your body is decaying as you take the drugs. And ultimately, you can't do that forever without having some sort of consequences. And those consequences are probably bad.
Sofie Hagen
Do you think people are capable of... Do you not think it, does it require, Hmm. I don't know if intelligence is the right word. Maybe it's more like a mental capacity or, like I've spoken to people who could not comprehend nuance, you know, who just didn't have that. And that's not a bad thing where people are unintelligent, there are loads of unintelligent people who are incredibly kind and wonderful and giving and can contribute in so many other ways with that. But doesn't it take a bit more intelligence to be able to fully understand this? Like, it hurts my head to think about how much nuance there is about every single thing? Do you know what I mean?
Julia Shaw
Yeah, I mean, intelligence can help, I think. But, I mean, I've met people who are not very intelligent, and don't divide the world up into good and bad, for example. And I've met clever people who definitely do. So I don't think it is just intelligence. I think it's a willingness to engage, a willingness to feel uncomfortable in the moment. And this is another thing is that short of short term versus long term is like, people hate the short term discomfort and the consequences of that are usually long term discomfort or long term negative outcomes. And so instead, I think it's that overcoming that momentary this is an uncomfortable conversation. Like we had a conversation, we have so many uncomfortable conversations on bad people. I mean, we've talked about children who kill, we've talked about, like, we've talked about all the things you're not supposed to talk about. And that's by design, right? It's because those are exactly the conversations we should be having, if we want those things to not happen, or at least if we want some hope of understanding and moving that conversation in the right direction. And so that short term discomfort ultimately can lead to longer term better outcomes, but it's that that's the peace that we need to break.
Sofie Hagen
Have you always preferred uncomfortable situations?
Julia Shaw
I fucking love them.
Sofie Hagen
Always? Have you always been into that?
Julia Shaw
I think I lean... I think there's a I wouldn't call it sadism. But there's a mischievousness. I think because I've always thought and been a bit different. And I've moved a lot as a kid, I was always new everywhere I went. And I was always younger than everyone everywhere I went. And it was just like I was always the other basically. And so I think I kind of leaned into that. I was like, 'guess this is just me now'. And so I did that with basically everything. And so I think with thoughts and with even being queer, right, that's another type of other, there's all these others. And I feel like it took a lot of the other boxes. I mean, I'm also a white privileged lady. So it's not like I'm not always the other for sure. But thought wise, I like getting people to discuss those difficult issues. And I like seeing that process in their minds. That goes tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, oh, I'm thinking differently. And oh, this is making me uncomfortable, but then coming out the other side somehow, and saying, oh, I have some new interesting ideas about that.
Sofie Hagen
So does that correlate? So is it a matter of you moving a lot and then being the new kid? Like that's sort of tough, right? That's hard for a child, right? Maybe not hard. Like it's not like deeply traumatising, necessarily, but I, I don't remember where I read about it. But there was like a, maybe I just spoke to a friend about it. I don't remember anything. And we sort of agreed that we both felt weird talking to people who didn't have a bit of darkness or a bit of, you know, having gone through some shit. Yeah. Like you can't, I can't relate to people who are just well functioning and happy. And, you know, joyful.
Julia Shaw
Yeah, I fundamentally don't understand normal, whatever that means. Like, I think normal people are usually really, really boring. And I think that I don't understand the conversations they have and why they have them. I don't understand why people gossip, for example, like, who cares? I don't understand why people measure their successes based on other people not just competing with themselves. I'm always competing with myself. I mean, typically, always other people seem to be competing with other people. And I find a lot of things that people seem to talk about, like, I don't understand them. Maybe it had to do with moving around, I don't know, I was sort of between cultures. It was Canadian, it was an American school, I went to German schools, I went to English schools. So like, it was all the different things from like Canada, to the US to Germany to England, it was international travelling. It was international travelling, it was just Germany and Canada, but within those also then different kinds of schools like Montessori schools, private schools, public schools. I went to like 12 different schools. And I skipped two grades and it was just a real mess. But because that was my
Sofie Hagen
Skipped two grades?
Julia Shaw
I skipped grade seven and nine, because I was bored at school.
Sofie Hagen
Oh so you were like too good? That's so interesting, because that I can imagine this. And that's gonna fuck you up a bit. Isn't it? Like you then you're suddenly very young amongst people who are older
Julia Shaw
I do enjoy that you're like, 'this all makes sense now'.
Sofie Hagen
This is rare that you meet someone with that experience. I'm just so curious about because just because you have the intelligence to be on that level. You haven't aged with those people. You haven't aged to the level of the people you're suddenly surrounded by.
Julia Shaw
Yeah, so I, but again, I because my whole life was moving around so much. That was my normal. So like, I would get weirded out if we, if I stayed in school for more than a couple, like two years. I think the most I stayed in school is, actually the last one I stayed in was three years. And some of them I also skipped like halfway through the year. At times, I was enrolled in two schools at once. Yeah, it was really bizarre. But that was my normal and so you just learn how to make friends quickly. At least temporary friends.
Sofie Hagen
I'm now like, 'oh, you're so clever. You nerd'. Or am I projecting now. I don't know think you're a nerd nerd.
Julia Shaw
I never looked nerdy. I was always the young one, which is different. And I think because I always looked quite femme and I always... I don't know, nerdy was never something I think that people associate with me. And I say that but maybe I was just so nerdy that I didn't notice because I was like, president of the chess club and stuff. So maybe I was just not nerdy. And basically I had friends and was kind of cool. And so like that was fine.
Sofie Hagen
So, so, how traumatising it was being super beautiful and clever. And also cool and having friends, it must have been, what a struggle you've had to...
Julia Shaw
Well, but that's basically I'm trying to say is that I don't think I didn't perceive it as a struggle at the time. But I did always perceive that I was other. In some ways I was cool because it was a bit of a curiosity. Like I just like rocked up and had the confidence of like an old white man. And just was like, I know things. And nothing has changed. So.
Sofie Hagen
So you're, what do you say queer, bisexual, pansexual? .
Julia Shaw
I use bi. Yeah, partly because I think people understand it. But by bi I mean attracted to multiple genders or more than one gender, I say bi being my gender and the other of the bi, the other of the two being other genders. Which is, I think, the most common definition that I've certainly seen among experts and people who identify as bi.
Sofie Hagen
I remember there was a time when bi wasn't being used, because people thought that bi was the two genders. But then the newest thing I've seen has been: No, no, no. That's not how things work. So bisexual, and have you always known?
Julia Shaw
I have, I didn't have a word for it initially. But I've always been attracted to boys and girls, men and woman. And my first part, my first sort of longer relationship, which I mean, three months go me as a teenager was with a girl. So I think it was pretty, pretty clear that that's what I was from young age. But, but yeah, I think I've been more vocal about it recently. I've been, I think, because I didn't have any role models within academia. And I sort of thought that I'd immediately be sexualized and basically be slut shamed, which has not been disproven completely.
Sofie Hagen
Yeah, I was about to say, like, yeah...
Julia Shaw
There's still some slut shaming. But mostly, it's been a positive reception. And mostly I've found a queer community that I didn't realise I was allowed to be a part of,
Sofie Hagen
Within academia or outside of it?
Julia Shaw
No, not within academia, no. There are queer people in...
Sofie Hagen
Is it a quite male dominated industry you're in? The whole criminal psychology, don't know what the industry would be called.
Julia Shaw
Criminal psychology is probably 60% woman. At the top, however, like in so many other disciplines and fields, there's still a disproportionate number of men. And so for example, on my PhD Committee, which was some years ago, I finished my PhD a while ago now. But on my PhD committee, there were four men. Out of four.
Sofie Hagen
Yep. I haven't done my PhD yet, so I don't know how many people are on a PhD committee.
Julia Shaw
There's a lot of the same knowledge. Yeah, so there are four, actually often there's only two or three but in mine, there were four. And they were all men, and they're all white men. It was all men, men, men everywhere. I think that is starting to change, but it's very slow. Also, Luna is attacking me. So sorry. That's my cat. For those of you that haven't listened to Bad People, she crashes basically every podcast recording that I do.
Sofie Hagen
She's adorable. You've slowly turned to me to be okay with cats.
Julia Shaw
Well you are trying to steal your neighbour's cat.
Sofie Hagen
I don't think it's my neighbor's cat. It's constantly outside my door and it's constantly in my garden. I don't think it has a home.
Julia Shaw
You think it belonged to people who lived there before you?
Sofie Hagen
Oooh, maybe
Julia Shaw
We got a cat with a house when I was a kid once.
Sofie Hagen
I mean, I have the doors open all the time. So it can just come in. And I've bought cat food.
Julia Shaw
Did you buy....
Sofie Hagen
No because I couldn't find it. So I picked Whiskas. Okay, because there's a Danish advert on TV, where the slogan was [Danish]. Which means cats would choose Whiskas.
Julia Shaw
Okay, that sounded really cute. The way you said it, though.
Sofie Hagen
[Danish]
Julia Shaw
Even not knowing what it means.
Sofie Hagen
I'm trying to befriend it, yes. And I do blame you fully for that. Yes.
Julia Shaw
I mean, Luna is pretty cute. She's got these cheeks.
Sofie Hagen
She's very adorable. She is. She's an okay cat. I accept her.
Julia Shaw
Well, thank you. But yeah, but I mean, one thing I liked about working with you is actually that you're queer as well.
Sofie Hagen
I know, it's kind of weird. It's kind of weird because I've been thinking about it quite a bit. This thing of how we're both queer and we could talk about that for so long, but when doing when we did the podcast, when we are doing the podcast, let's not give up all hope that it will get another season, I don't know, do you think the same as me, I thought, well, I think we're both quite used to not talking about it for various reasons, you know, either to not freak people out or due to internalised biphobia and all of those sort of things. And so it didn't even feel natural to mention it. Because I'm not used to mentioning mentioning it naturally in a sentence. So we almost had to go, oh, and we can mention, we can actually talk about this now. Yeah. Because it's felt so strange to be able to just talk about it. Does that make sense?
Julia Shaw
It did, but it's also... There's a piece of me that likes being publicly out now. So because it's on my profile, it's on like, it's on all my shit. Like, I think if people follow me, there's no way they're not going to at some point, hear me shout about this. Which is by design, because I want to constantly remind people, not just about me, but the fact that bi people exist, and that they can look, however, that they don't need to be a certain look or certain kind of person. But on the show, there's something about me, maybe not about me but there's something about making a podcast or a piece of content with other queer people and being a bit like on the DL, it's like the bi agenda gets to creep its way in without explicitly saying it. And then at some point, you're like, now that you like us, by the way, we are bisexual.
Sofie Hagen
It's true, I like it when you watch a TV show or something, and then some people are just gay, or bi or whatever. And I always go, wait, that wasn't in the title of the show. You just put that in there. Like I wasn't even prepared for it
Julia Shaw
Visibility win!
Sofie Hagen
That's fun. We were gonna... So you've always been bi, and you've always known and your first partner was a woman, or a girl, you were a teenager. But you've only just recently started talking about it, is there a difference in your... Talking about it publicly, has that affected the way you go about in life in any kind of way?
Julia Shaw
It has. So in a couple of different ways. But I think that's also a bit due to the fact that the conversations about sexuality have changed. And I think that they have broadened and improved over time. And so there is more of a celebration, and more inclusion of different kinds of sexual minorities. That wasn't the case, even three or four years ago. And it's quite new that we can have this bi party online. I mean, literally, the first bi pride event, like the first bi big celebration party thing was last year in London, and that was the first time it was ever held in Europe. So I mean, this is new, this specific, especially sort of minorities within minorities being able to talk about who they are, and celebrate it. But I think I embrace my experience of gender differently as well. So I feel like and you've talked to because you talk about being non binary I feel like I get it in the sense that I definitely have days where I'm like quite masc or I'm quite femme and I will lean in to, what to me feels quite queer. Like it just feels like I am...maybe queer uniform is the wrong term, but I feel very masculine, I feel very handsome rather than pretty. And other days I'm like 'I'm so pretty' and I feel like I'm much more willing to embrace that now that I've had more thoughts and sort of uncovered aspects of what my sexuality means to me and how that manifests and also my gender expression.
Sofie Hagen
Does that then come with a...Does your brain give you a backlash on that? Because mine will do that, I feel like I'll constantly go 'this new thing feels really good'. And then my brain will go 'oh, but you're not allowed to like that because you don't have short hair or you've not slept with a woman' or something like that. And then I have this internal battle of 'well am I bi enough?' Am I queer enough, am I non binary enough, and it almost becomes a bit of a mess in my head. Even though if you had any other person saying the same thing, I'd be like, 'shut up, you are whatever you are. You're legit, you're valid'. When it's me there's so much internalised bullshit. So do you have a backlash against yourself as well?
Julia Shaw
I sometimes have this 'shut up bisexual', internal 'you don't need to constantly remind people of your sexuality'. I have that sometimes in my head, especially online. But in terms of how I dress or who I flirt with... Basically the days where I feel quite butch is usually also days that I'm particularly attracted to women, which is a bit heteronormative in a different way, but that's how that manifests with me. I also feel more visible as a queer person those days. So it's almost like I'm rocking the sort of... I've got some rainbows, I've got the mask, I've got the vibe, I've got the music, I'm walking down the street with my queer vibes. And I'm occasionally giving a little nod to girls without being creepy. Basically I just get really shy and awkward when I see girls I like [high pitched giggle] I just like melt away.
Sofie Hagen
I think it's playing. I remember my therapist told me about it, I forget what age, I feel like it was six or seven, where she said that little girls will usually go through a princess phase of suddenly everything is princess and pink. And I think because of society being so heteronormative and straight and blah, blah, we get we get to play with that side, most of us will get to play with the, you know, people who are born and told that they are women will get to play the princess and boys will get to play the prince or whatever. But then if you realise or you start exploring your gender, or sexuality, or whatever when you're older, you suddenly have to go through that phase when you're in your 20s or 30s, or 40s. And then, and that's for me as well. Like the first times I would flirt with women or just anyone who wasn't a cis man, I would suddenly put butch up as well, like [low voice] 'yeah what's up honey?' what is happening? Because that's the only thing I knew, and I haven't played with it yet. You know, I hadn't gone to the extreme. Before I found myself in that space and you suddenly go oh my god, I'm a 30 year old teenager. I'm a 30 year old teenage boy.
Julia Shaw
Oh, totally. Oh, I mean, I would go even further and say that when I am out and find a girl attractive and want to flirt with her, what happens is I become a 12 year old boy who has like a crush on his teacher. Like the worst. And I just like go bright red. Also, because I don't want to be one of those guys. Like I don't want to add to the constant harassment that so many women especially in the service industry, which is ultimately where... People who serve me food and drinks, I'm just gonna fall in love with them sometimes. Because there's just a primal piece of that. And also, I just don't interact with that many other people. There's a special place in my heart for people who bring me food.
Sofie Hagen
I have the same, when I have a crush on women or just anyone who isn't a cis man, I'm so reluctant to do anything about it. Because I'm like, I respect them too much. So I know what they have to go through. They don't need this on top of that, like me being and you know, I keep questioning myself like am I being a creep? [Inaudible] But then again, that is what creeps think. I just won't.
Julia Shaw
Yeah, exactly. And just the whole experience of having been hit on by people. Although I've basically never thought that being hit on by a woman has been creepy. Women are better at it and less likely to be perceived aggressively.
Sofie Hagen
Less likely to kill you. So yeah.
Julia Shaw
Basically the first two years or so of coming out publicly, I still had a little voice in my head saying 'you're probably not bi enough, you're not queer enough'. Words, too: Am I allowed to call myself a dyke? Am I allowed to call myself like, what are my words? These are still questions that I have. What are bi words that I can reclaim or claim? Because those are the kinds of slurs that are used against me. So surely I should be able to use them, to reclaim them. But it's a bit more complicated, but mostly, I think now, I just love leaning into it and I love the feeling that I have another community, I have a tribe.
Sofie Hagen
So nice.
Julia Shaw
Yeah. How about you, do you feel like you've found a tribe?
Sofie Hagen
Yes, but not..Well first of all, I feel like tribe is problematic as a word? I don't remember, but I feel like it is
Julia Shaw
Appropriation?
Sofie Hagen
Yes, I think so. I think that's the word for it. I feel like I've heard this like five years ago. I had a friend who said it a lot. And then I found out it wasn't good. I don't remember why. Do you know when you have those like 'I know this is wrong, but I can't explain why'.
Julia Shaw
Okay, we can use different words.
Sofie Hagen
Community. Yeah, I found my community in the sort of... I have a fat community which is, I mean, having a community is oh my god, it's life changing. Right? Most of the people in my fat community, a lot of them are trans, a lot of them are fat or queer, I think, well, they're not even all fat. I guess I have a community. Okay. We're just sort of people who are on the right side of history. What we all have in common is like, we're all we're all being told we're too radical and too political, too angry, too much. It makes all the difference.
Julia Shaw
It does, it does. And I do feel like it's just been, like, so good for my, if I believed in the soul it'd be soul, there's so good for my wellbeing to feel like there are these other people who are also going through the same struggles and the same thoughts and the same sort of questioning of what what it all means. But yeah.
Sofie Hagen
so you do a lot of like questioning in general, like, it feels like your brain is very full of asking questions and finding the answers and exploring and there's a lot of, is there a lot of noise in your head? Is there a lot going on all the time?
Julia Shaw
There is a lot going on most of the time. It can be a bit stressful. But I'm not even sure if... I think I am looking for answers. But I'm often not expecting to find them. I'm expecting to come to some sort of like, decision for me as to sort of what the right thought is within a certain context. But in some ways, what I like about science, and what I like about the sort of work I do is that it's more about finding better questions. And so in some ways, I like asking questions so that I can find better questions, which sounds like a bad thing. But it's a really exciting, fun thing. And it's basically what gets us to those core things like who am I? What is the meaning of it all? You know, what is...And I can't not think about those things. I think my mind automatically goes all the way in, gets quite philosophical very quickly, and always has and so I feel like, I can't not deal with those questions, because it's always there.
Sofie Hagen
And so with evil. Yeah. And I guess memories is what... No, let's start with evil. What was your first meeting with what most people would refer to as evil?
Julia Shaw
First meeting with evil, that seems like a 'so when I was five...', no. I don't know that I can remember the first time and I have really bad autobiographical memory actually, which is quite funny given that I study autobiographical memory. 'Research isn't me-search' as they say. But I also just don't find my own autobiography that interesting. Like, I'm much more interested in concepts than I am in my own life in some ways, even though I value experiences. But anyway I don't know. I mean I certainly grew up with... Well, I mean one of my my parents is quite conspiratorial, and certainly believes that there's constantly people following us and things. And so that I think, had an influence on how I saw the world and some of the questions Iasked. But I also grew up in a household that was very questioning and was constantly pushing to learn more things. And that knowledge and learning was exciting and fun and good. But my first encounter with evil, I don't think I've met evil because I don't think evil exists. And maybe it's because I've never met evil.
Sofie Hagen
It sounds like you've met fear. Like that sounds scary as a child to not know what's real, necessarily or not, you know, having the idea that someone might be after you, that's scary for a child, right?
Julia Shaw
Well, there's that and I mean, existential dread is strong. Like I've got a very strong sense of existential dread. And in some ways, actually, for a while, I want to study consciousness, because that's the one thing that I wanted to solve, because the one thing you need to keep asking questions is more time. And the only way you can have more time is if you can extend consciousness. But that's where my mind goes, like all the way in. Like can we make it, can we download the brain, can we make AI to replicate it? Can we extend life, can we be like, in a purely consciousness situation? Which I no longer want because I feel like also living forever is not better. It doesn't solve the problem that I feel I have, but the idea that life is finite just blows my mind and continues to blow my mind. And I think, yeah, that does come with fear.
Sofie Hagen
I feel like at the moment, it's a comforting thought. Thank god this will all end at some point. So in all of your questions and all of your me-search, a lot of is concepts instead of your own experiences, your own life. And you look to consciousness and you... A lot of its outward, like, how much of your searching and how much of your curiosity and exploring and analysing goes inwards?
Julia Shaw
Well, I mean, it's ultimately all inwards in the sense that it's trying to figure out, you know, what is my consciousness? What is my perception of the world? And what is my, what am I doing here? Basically, there's a lot of that, and what is the way that I can maximise what I might count as purpose. And I think purpose, I mean, that's obviously unique. Everybody has their own perspective on what their purpose might be. But I think if you're not touching other people's lives positively over the course of your life, then... Basically for me it's an echo, is what I always want to create, because I want to create an echo of my thoughts that I think are important, and some sort of ripples that go through other consciousnesses basically, and that have some sort of lasting effect beyond beyond my passing. And so that's what I'm trying to create. And that's why things like science communication are important to me. Because I think that's how you that's how you live forever, is by inspiring other people to think in a certain way.
Sofie Hagen
What's your relationship with irrationality?
Julia Shaw
What does that mean?
Sofie Hagen
It feels like everything is... In science, right? Everything is sort of about evidence, and studies and research, and it's a lot of finding the answers or finding morequestions to ask, and what about things that are utterly inexplicable, irrational, that you just have to accept?
Julia Shaw
I think that's most things, I don't think I ever overanalyze everything. Like I'm not constantly looking for meaning inevery single thing I do, as I'm scrolling on Instagram, I'm not like, ;oh, what is the meaning of this?; I mean, sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my time and time is life. So in that sense, I feel guilt about the fact that I've chosen to do this and not something else. But I'm not constantly looking for meaning in everything. I think it is sort of more bigger picture. So I think irrationality, most things are irrational, most things are unpredictable. Most things we'll never know why they happen, or lots of things we don't even know whether they've happened, like it's sort of assumptions about things that happen elsewhere. Like what's happening with my mom right now? There's all these like assumptions we're making, like, probably she's fine. But I think irrationality itself doesn't bother me terribly. But I do still want to look for sort of the big things important things like evil, or like our identity, or like, purpose, or sexuality and things that are really fundamental to the human experience. And not just mine, but sort of a number of humans or all humans, even. I think that that is something where I look for evidence, that's where I'm looking for the questions. It's not sort of in the minutiae of everyday. So do you question why you have a bad autobiographical memory? I think it's because I've never paid attention to, or I rarely pay attention to the moment. A lot of the time, I'm living in concepts, and I'm living in abstract. And I think since I was a kid, I've lived in the abstracts, because that's how I like to be. And so I'm not.
Sofie Hagen
I mean, it sounds like what you're saying is not paying attention to the moment sounds like another word for being present.
Julia Shaw
Yeah, and, yeah, so I think I'm often basically adrift in thought, and not in a negative, it's not that I don't appreciate nice things I do. But I don't, I basically take it in. And then I'm like, oh, that's nice. And then I'm back into thought. And then I'm thinking about, you know, what is the universe or something, something that sort of supersedes all of it. You're thinking of thoughts.
Sofie Hagen
I'm just trying not to [sighs] what it sounds like is the trauma reaction called flight. So there's, in when you have C-PTSD, complex PTSD, there are these at least four trauma reactions, right, which is all a way of getting away from the present. And there's fight which is obviously fight. There's fawn, which is when you become codependent, and there's freeze, which is dissociation. And then there's flight, which is when you preoccupy your mind with other things as to not be in the moment. So it's sort of like a trauma reaction. And that was just what popped into my head when you said that.
Julia Shaw
I think I probably have ADD. I only recently came to the realisation when actually someone else pointed out to me that that sounds like ADD, I was describing something like 'why can't I focus on, why can't I do this thing', like 'the way you're describing it sounds like ADD' and I looked up the symptoms. So I'd never considered that this might be a thing that affects me because I was always good in school, people never asked, this was not on the table, there was never question, because ADD is something usually I think that gets diagnosed a) in boys and b) in kids who aren't very good or who are struggling at school. And about a year ago, I looked at symptoms of ADD and I met most of them. And I was like, 'oh, well, this explains some things'. So I think I probably have ADD and that might also explain the sort of overload of thoughts.
Sofie Hagen
What's ADD?
Julia Shaw
Attention deficit disorder,
Sofie Hagen
Which is not the same as autism, right? It's a different thing?
Julia Shaw
No, but here's a lot of overlap between autism and ADHD. There's also a threshold. So for me, I basically need a higher threshold of stimulation, I need more shit happening. And I think that's also why I need more thoughts like I can't like being in the moment is more difficult, when you need a higher level of what the moment is. And so you fill up to that point of what feels normal to you with more thoughts or more things, I'm constantly busying myself.
Sofie Hagen
Have you read anywhere, have you seen anything about the not having an autobiographical memory? Is that normal or common in people with ADD?
Julia Shaw
Oh, I don't know, I know that... Well, let's say it differently, I know that a cornerstone to making memories is attention. And if you're not paying sufficient attention to the moment, and you're most basically trying to multitask with your thoughts or jumping around a lot, you're less likely to perceive the moment, and if you don't perceive it you don't store it. So in that sense, it would it would tie together for me.
Sofie Hagen
That makes sense. I mean, that's why I don't remember anything. I mean, not ADD, but I was never present. That was purely 1000% because of trauma. And because of you know, fleeing from the, it wasn't safe to be present in that situation. But it's weird not having like, knowing what happened, but not having the memories. Or the only memories I have are from photos or stories or something I've seen or been reminded of afterwards.
Julia Shaw
But for me, it's not just childhood, it's always. I struggle with autobiographical memories. I remember concepts. But like, I will forget whole holidays. Not entirely, there's like bits and pieces. But you couldn't really ask me without, as you said, photos and things. Exactly what happened, like, have you been to this country? Often I'm like I dunno, and that for most people is a really easy task. For me, it's like, I dunno, didn't really matter. And that's, yeah...
Sofie Hagen
Does that happen a lot that you are weirdly capable of things that most people find hard, like grasping larger concepts and seeing every side to a specific thing. You know, all these very big complex things. And then the most basic things like remembering if you've been to Italy, is something that you can't. Is that a common thing for you? Is that another part of being 'other', not being as good at the most basic stuff, but then hyper achieving in others, if you know what I mean?
Julia Shaw
Yes, I think it is. And I think that people don't understand it. And people think I'm being really...I'm hilariously bad at names, like, I am so bad at names that I will forget the names of my friends randomly, like it, my brain is just gone. And these are friends I've had for decades. And there'll just be a moment. What do they call it, almost feels like dementia, what dementia probably feels like, but just sort of for a short period of time. And then in terms of new names, it just, I mean, you can tell me a name. And I'll repeat it back to you. And like in 10 seconds, I will forget it. And then you can repeat it again, we can be doing this for like three days in a row and I will still be getting your name wrong. And the poor people just think I'm being rude. Like I'm trying not to pay attention, I'm not putting any effort in. It's just like, no, it's just that as soon as you've said this to me, I paid attention for a second. And then my thoughts were everywhere. And I find it really difficult to cling to something small. But big thoughts like consciousness...
Sofie Hagen
I have it with facts, like, I will know something. And I know I know it. But if you ask me, it's gone. And it is the most... People don't think thie same- well, people always think I'm rude, but that's probably because I am, but people think I'm just really unintelligent. And that's why there's a lot of the quizzes and interviews particularly where they're like, 'we'll do like a speed round, where I'll just ask you a quick question'. And then you just quickly answer and they'll be like, 'what's the weirdest gig you've ever had'? And then my mind is completely blank. And I'm like, 'I don't remember any gig that I have ever had. Yeah, I have nothing'. And often I'll be so panicky I'll like make something up or mention the most irrelevant thing or just go into this anxiety mode of 'I don't know, have I ever done a gig' and so I always tell them to send me the questions in advance because I need to have the time to think about this. But they're always like, 'it's much more fun when we catch you off guard'. Like it's really not. Same with, I did the Pointless Celebrities. Okay. And I've never been more anxious because I just knew that one of the questions was going to be like, what's the capital of Denmark? And my mindwas gonna go blank. And I would just look ridiculous being like, I don't know, because my mind can't find the information anywhere. Yeah, it's like every part of my brain goes mayday, mayday, find the information and no one's doing it. Yeah. And it's so that same feeling of like, it's not for the reasons you think. And most people can just do this, but I can't.
Julia Shaw
So I think that's why I like writing is that for me, it helps me organise my thoughts. And I can go over and like rejig and rejig and rejig. And I can have like 50 tabs open at once, which my brain quite likes, and it's like, ooh, information, and then synthesise. And it's that synthesising of information that to me, gives me the most pleasure. And yeah, recalling it, it's much easier with notes. This is why when we do Bad People it's partly scripted, because there's no way I'm going to remember the names of all the people we're talking about, or what they did, or what city they're in, like, there's no way.
Sofie Hagen
I often envy you. Because there's so often where I'm like, I know this thing, but I don't remember the context. I don't remember the names. I don't remember the numbers or the study. I just know that I'm sort of right about a thing, but I can't explain it. And that's never good. It's never a good concept of like, 'there's something here. I'm not sure what, just trust me'.
Julia Shaw
Yeah. But I mean, it's a delight. Doing the podcast with you.
Sofie Hagen
I was about to say it's a miracle that we can even do it with our weird brains.
Julia Shaw
But I think that's what I like about us. And I think that's what I like about weirdos, frankly. And people who are a bit out there is that I don't understand normal brains, like people who think about, I don't know, mundane things, have 'normal' jobs who have nine to fives, like, what even is that? How does anyone stay sane in that kind of environment is my thought. But obviously, lots of people are mostly fine in that. And so I like it when people's...The comments you make are completely unpredictable. And that is my favourite thing is that I hate predictability and loads of people are super predictable. And you're not. And that's lovely.
Sofie Hagen
I agree. And I'm always scared that it sounds like I'm, I always I feel like, you know those teenage girls from my school who were like, 'I'm just so weird. Like, sometimes I wear like socks in two different colours oh my god'. But it's like I do actually really sometimes envy the people who can just do that and have a normal life, like what seems normal, it looks normal. It looks simple. Like people who have a routine or people who think more about people who... I listen to All Killa No Filla, which is a true crime podcast by Kiri Pritchard-McLean and Rachel Fairburn
Julia Shaw
You got the information!
Sofie Hagen
Oh, yeah, I was cheating because I know them personally. Cheating so much, but it's really good. It's about serial killers. And I just heard an episode where one of them told a story about Kiri, I think, talking about having spoken to someone about murder. And this person sort of recoiled and was like, oh, god, no. And she went, oh, yeah, not everyone's, like people actually think this is really horrible. And she, of course, thinks it's horrible. We think these things are horrible. But something about imagining being a person who thinks listening to a podcast about horrific murders isn't a nice thing. And part of me is like, wow, that must be a different kind of life like I mean, is that a better life? I think sometimes I think it might be.
Julia Shaw
I think it might be but I do think that society does a lot of people up to fail in lots of different ways as well including in terms of happiness and set sort of these parameters that are unrealistic around what you're supposed to think, what you're supposed to like, who you're supposed to like, how your life's supposed to look. And I mean, including for things like relationships. I mean obviously monogamy is a lie. It doesn't make sense for most people. And that is exemplified in statistics on cheating. Like, if you feel the need to lie to your partner about the fact that you're not monogamous, that's a problem. And I'd say that's a systemic problem for a lot of people and it's because society's told you there's no other options.
Sofie Hagen
So that's why people cheat? People who cheat are polyamorous?
Julia Shaw
No, you can be...monogamous just means you're having sex with one person. It doesn't actually imply that you love that person.
Sofie Hagen
Oh, yes. Polyamory is love.
Julia Shaw
And monogamy...yeah
Sofie Hagen
What's the opposite of monogamy?
Julia Shaw
I think it's polygamy.
Sofie Hagen
Polygamy. That was what I meant. Yeah. So you think they cheat because they're not monogamous?
Julia Shaw
Well by definition they're not monogamous if they're sleeping with more than one person.
Sofie Hagen
But is that an action? Or is it a trait? Do you know what I mean, like, is it an identity, or is it a behaviour? Or is it something that you are?
Julia Shaw
It's something that you do. And something that you can? I mean, you are monogamous, but you are, your behaviour is monogamous. Like you asked me, it's about the behaviour mostly. Lots of people basically identify as monogamous, but actually behave in a way that's polygamous, or in a way that is having sex with multiple people, but their identity is that they're monogamous. Right. It's's a bit like lots of people think that they're heterosexual when they're clearly bi.
Sofie Hagen
I don't think straight exists. I don't think anyone's straight. I really don't think anyone is straight.
Julia Shaw
I think some people are, but I think that even that is not as strict in terms of behaviour. I think a lot of people are straight in terms of fantasy behaviour. In terms of other things, primary same sex, you know, it's just it's...
Sofie Hagen
So yeah, but there's a difference between what you are and what you do. Because then I would be straight. Because...
Julia Shaw
Yeah, and there's a difference between what you are, what you do, and what you want to do/fantasise about. And so I would have an inclusive definition as you would probably around bisexuality, that that can include people who identify as bi but have never engaged in sort of behaviour, any kind of sexual behaviour, never mind genders. And that it or people who fantasise or would like to be with and again have never behaved in that way. Or have only had sex with one gender, for example.
Sofie Hagen
Yes.
Julia Shaw
Like you fantasise about women, but you've only ever been with men, for example.
Sofie Hagen
Yeah.
Julia Shaw
But then if you identify as bi, you're still bi
Sofie Hagen
You know what, there's too much moving house and boxes and pandemic, and it being 10pm. For me to grasp the concept. Listen, I'm not Dr. Julia Shaw,, I cannot contain this much nuance.
Julia Shaw
But yeah, basically, the take home message, I think that a lot of people are taught and forced into a life that actually doesn't suit their needs. And I think that that probably makes them not very happy. And I think that everyone should listen to true crime podcasts, especially ours. Was this whole episode just an ad for Bad People?
Sofie Hagen
I mean, I prefer this kind of ad instead of the ones that we're asked to do where we have to be like, y''ou are listening to Bad People from BBC Sounds. My name is Sofie Hagen. I'm a stand up comedian and we'd like to...' I don't even remember the script anymore. 'Please go and subscribe on BBCSounds.com' I don't know. Let's hope that we get more episodes. So at the moment of us recording this, which will come out very soon. But what were we on, episode eight?
Julia Shaw
I think nine comes out this week.
Sofie Hagen
We're really hoping to be able to record 11, 12, 13 etc. Very soon.
Julia Shaw
I think it looks good.
Sofie Hagen
I think it looks good. I don't want to jinx it, but [worried noise] I'm very excited to do more murder evil chat with you.
Julia Shaw
Yes. And I've already in my head got a plan for an LGBT+ one. Just a better excuse to talk about sexuality.
Sofie Hagen
I just really want to do Munchausen by proxy.
Julia Shaw
Yes.
Sofie Hagen
Yeah. I'm so fascinated by it I don't know why
Julia Shaw
I want to do some terrorism stuff as well. I think that's really interesting around again, something we're specifically asked not to emphathise around. Never think that you know what a terrorist is thinking.
Sofie Hagen
Oh, and I was about to say like good terrorism, but by that I mean like freedom fighters. Yeah. Yeah, good, good.
Julia Shaw
Well, if this is Nazi Germany and you'd be fighting the Nazis, you'd also be a terrorist and that would definitely be on the good side of history.
Sofie Hagen
That's a good terrorist like the Danish freedom... Let's save this for, let's save it. Save it for Episode 14. I don't know. And I can't wait to argue with you more about all the things we disagree on. It's good. It's good. So the last question that I was asked on this podcast [clears throat] is this. Yes, I am. And I'm weirdly very excited to hear your answer, actually. So you're in the delivery room. How old are you? By the way?
Julia Shaw
I'm 33.
Sofie Hagen
You're in the delivery room. And you've just been born.
Julia Shaw
I've just been born. Okay.
Sofie Hagen
But you now are also in the delivery room. Yeah, just accept it. You look like you're struggling so much. And this isn't even the...
Julia Shaw
So I'm a spirit?
Sofie Hagen
You're just you now. And you've just been born. Just imagine that.
Julia Shaw
Sure.
Sofie Hagen
So you are holding yourself.
Julia Shaw
Oh, that's weird.
Sofie Hagen
But you're very clever. You can get this right. Just accepted it as a mind experiment. Yeah. So tiny Julia is crying, right? Because she's just been born. And there's lights and sounds everywhere. She's like, what the fuck is this? This is loud and noisy and horrible and there's people. And I was just in the womb, and it was all lovely, and nice and quiet. And now it's just, everything's happening. She's crying and crying. And she's looking at you like, what the fuck? And you know what the next 33 years of her life is gonna look like it because you can't change anything. Right? It's all happened...Oh yeah, you sort of remember vaguely what's going to happen in the next thirty three years in her life? She doesn't know yet. You can't change the future. So you can't say anything. Because this has all happened and it will always happen. But she looks at you like what is this? What's going to happen? This feels horrible. And you know, there's going to be the equivalent of lights and sounds everywhere throughout her life at specific times. But you know, it will be something else. And she's looking at you and she's crying. She's like, what the fuck is this? What's going to happen? And you get to tell her something. She'll forget it immediately. You can't tell her to change anything. You can't give her advice. Can't tell her to do anything. But you can answer a question, which is, what's happening? What's going to happen? What's this? What is this? What's it going to be like? What would you say? It's a teeny tiny baby Julia?
Julia Shaw
Teeny tiny Julia. 'Never stop being curious'. Um, yeah, I think probably would say something along the lines of 'keep looking, keep looking for answers and keep looking for questions'.
Sofie Hagen
What if you couldn't give advice?
Julia Shaw
I couldn't give advice, what would I do?
Sofie Hagen
You can just answer a question. What's this gonna be like? What is this?
Julia Shaw
The universe experiencing itself.
Sofie Hagen
Like crawling back into the womb?
Julia Shaw
The universe experiencing itself? I mean, that's generally for me, that's one of my most comforting thoughts. I think that is unbelievably mind blowing to think that you are a piece of the universe and you will always be part of the universe. And every one of your atoms has always existed and will forever exist, just not in this current form. So it's like you're borrowing atoms from the universe to have the consciousness you do right now? That is magical. So I think that maybe I would tell her that
Sofie Hagen
Hot often do you need to be reminded of that yourself?
Julia Shaw
Um, well, I try to think it at least once a day or two or every other day, because I think that in some ways if you haven't had, for me if I haven't had wonder at least once in my day, I've done it wrong. And that I'm like, constantly hunting for that sort of that sort of mind expansion feeling. Feeling like you've just taken some MDMA and connected to everyone. That's what I want to feel. I love you all.
Sofie Hagen
I cannot relate, but I love it. So thank you for doing this. Plug your stuff. I hear you have a podcast.
Julia Shaw
It was with an incredible stand up comedian called Sofie Hagen
Sofie Hagen
She sounds amazing.
Julia Shaw
She is amazing and pretty, so pretty. And somedays she's handsome actually.
Sofie Hagen
She prefers handsome, yes.
Julia Shaw
Yes, so Bad People on BBC sounds, like and subscribe there and listen to me and Sofie chat about all kinds of things. And just give you an existential crisis with every episode.
Sofie Hagen
Trigger warning everything.
Julia Shaw
It was funny when we started those and the BBC was like, 'we should probably give a trigger warning'. And then we're like, 'that's literally the purpose of the show'.
Sofie Hagen
It's expected to be real bad. You've written books as well.
Julia Shaw
I have I've written a book called Making Evil: the science behind humanity's dark side, which is a popular science book on why we do bad things. So why 'good people, normal people' do bad things. And also why some people have done some terrible, terrible things who are still normal, but maybe a little bit less of. And I've written a book called The Memory Illusion: remembering, forgetting, and the science of false memory, and that one is about my PhD work, and is again, a popular science book. So trying to bring you closer to understanding how memory works. But even more importantly, how it doesn't.
Sofie Hagen
Yeah, what else? Where can people find you on social media, all of those things
Julia Shaw
I'm very brand consistent. You can find me at Dr. Julia Shaw on Twitter on Instagram, you can go check out my website, which is also DrJuliaShaw.com. You can read my science, my research there as well. And I've got a bisexual Research Group, which, if you are interested in bi issues, or if you are a bi researcher yourself, you can reach out and potentially join some of our meetings where we talk about research on the topics of bisexuality.
Sofie Hagen
That's so cool. I knowing my audience, there'll be people interested. Definitely.
Julia Shaw
So the website for that is bisexualresearch.com which amazingly, was still available by the way, side note you know there's a dearth of research when bisexual research.com is still available. It was a real moment of being like, we need this because this website exists.
Sofie Hagen
Someone took the the Twitter handle @transphobia. And when you go to it, it's just the person saying Trans Lives Matter, I took this so that no one could abuse the username. I love that. Well, wonderful. Thank you so much for doing this. And we will now say goodbye. And then I will ask you the extra questions for the patrons. Okay, so, bye, bye. Bye.
Hope you enjoyed listening to that as much as I enjoyed having the conversation with Julia, go and buy her books Making Evil and the Memory Illusion and go and listen to Bad People podcast that we do together for BBC Sounds, and go and tweet at her. And thank her and tell her she's great and celebrate her and all those things. She is lovely. And she also had to put up with me cancelling a last minute recording yesterday because I couldn't find my headphones in any of the boxes. So she is in many ways, an absolute hero.
Now I just want to say thank you to all the people who support me. At the moment of me recording this, I have not yet... I don't know if you've heard the previous episode, which I think by the time you listen to this one, it will have just come out a few days ago so maybe you haven't listened yet. Either way, there was a whole thing about the patron stuff. I'm not going to go into it again because it was quite long. But what I'm still not really sure how to do the saying of the names thing. So if you if you're curious about that, go listen to the previous episode, and give me a feedback. And then I will find out soon what to do about all of this. What I will say is that if your name is not mentioned today, that doesn't mean it'll never be mentioned again. I just need to figure out how to go about this. I know that's super vague, but honestly, I talked about it for like 10,15 minutes in the last episode. And I don't want it to be complicated and it is and I don't like that it's complicated. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna thank the patrons but I also just want to say a massive thank you to people who give one off donations, I don't mention you enough. Thank you very much. And if you're interested in doing that, the link is on madeofhumanpodcast.com. Also, this is important. I should have said this in the introduction. Because like I just want you to be aware of what you're doing by supporting this because I have now gotten someone to, and this would be a perfect time to credit them with their name if I could remember it. [Transcriber's note: Hi, my name is Phoebe!] I am so sorry. I only just thought of this now, I will do better when I'm not surrounded by chaos. But someone is now transcribing the episodes. So from now on, in a perfect world, if nothing goes wrong, every episode will be transcribed. And it'll be on the website on madeofhumanpodcast.com. And I think it'll be yes. If you just click the episode link, it should be in there. I will, once I get over this chaos, I will make it as visible as I possibly can. But it should definitely be that either on the day of it coming out of the episode coming out or a couple of days later, you can find a transcript of the entire episode. And that's partly because you support this podcast that I can afford to pay someone to do this. So yeah, that's what you're part of supporting.
Also, I'm trying to do this new thing where whenever I remember, whenever I can, I try to record this sort of behind the scenes video of me doing these intros and outros so you can sort of see what goes into it and all the things that I fuck up. I don't know how interesting it is. A few people have said that it is. Also today, I realised there's a community page on Patreon. So a few people have just written something like 'hey everyone, did you also like this thing?' I didn't know that. So if you want like a community, go there, or see if you can find the Facebook group. [Dramatic gasp] I said too much. Now. Thank you for all of your wonderful support, and love you all very, very much. You're just incredible. I am at a point right now, I'm pretty sure that I will never ever be asked to do any television ever again. Because I'm too opinionated. I keep being told off by various, let's say important people within the industry, who make certain decisions about who gets to be on TV. And I have just been encouraged to be less political in my opinions. [Plastic rustling] Oh, I hope you can't hear that. That's the sound of my makeup stand. Yeah, I've just been encouraged to um, I've been informed that I will be more likely to do television if I talk less about politics, and by politics of course. What these people mean is let's stop talking about inequality and social justice and I have absolutely zero intention of stopping that. So you, you make this happen. Thank you very much.
I'm going to give a massive thank you to the people who are patrons who are supporting with $5 per episode, every episode and massive thank you to:
[Long list of names]
Thank you all you are so, so lovely. Thank you for listening, this is going to be a week of two or three episodes coming out because I missed a couple of weeks. But please do not worry, I will never release more than one episode a week on average in a month, if that makes sense. So like in a worst case scenario, if it's a month where there are four Wednesdays, I might release all four on the last Wednesday, but I will never release like none in September and then eight in October. It'll always be the same amount of Wednesdays in that month. And if I then miss that I just won't. I'll skip it, if that makes sense. Anyways, I'm trying to say is there are five Wednesdays in September. So I will not release more than five episodes this month. But they might all happen this week. Because I've not had access to WiFi and everything's chaos. So I hope that's okay with you. Thank you for being here for me in these chaotic times of me not having furniture. Also I mean, I'm just gonna say this. I got I got my sofa today from a company that brags about how it only takes three minutes to build their sofa. And yes, in theory that is correct. But it took 45 minutes to get them out of the boxes. So false advertising, but don't tell anyone I said that, because I'm very grateful for the influencer discount that I got. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you so much to Dr. Julia Shaw, for being an amazing guest and co host on our podcast, Bad People from BBC Sounds and thanks for listening, thanks to Dave Pickering for editing this episode and being so patient with me in these with me being like 'okay, so now you need to edit none for two weeks and then eleven within this next hour'. Thank you, Dave for being incredible, thanks for Harriet Brain for writing and recording the jingle and to Justine McNichol for the logo. This podcast was produced by me. I will speak to you probably very soon. Bye